DOGE Is Doing the Opposite of Government Auditing

WIRED’s Vittoria Elliot joins Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond to sermon what real authorities auditors deliberation of DOGE’s work, and what happened during DOGE’s archetypal six weeks.

‘It’s a Heist’: Real Federal Auditors Are Horrified by DOGE by Vittoria Elliott
Inside Elon Musk’s ‘Digital Coup’ by Makena Kelly, David Gilbert, Vittoria Elliott, Kate Knibbs, Dhruv Mehrotra, Dell Cameron, Tim Marchman, Leah Feiger, and Zoë Schiffer
Donald Trump Held Another Million-Dollar ‘Candlelight’ Dinner—With Elon Musk successful Tow by Leah Feiger and Zoë Schiffer

You tin travel Katie Drummond connected Bluesky astatine @katie-drummond and Vittoria Elliott connected Bluesky astatine @telliotter. Write to america astatine [email protected].

How to Listen

You tin ever perceive to this week's podcast done the audio subordinate connected this page, but if you privation to subscribe for escaped to get each episode, here's how:

If you're connected an iPhone oregon iPad, unfastened the app called Podcasts, oregon conscionable pat this link. You tin besides download an app similar Overcast oregon Pocket Casts and hunt for “uncanny valley.” We’re connected Spotify too.

Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Katie Drummond: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley. I'm WIRED's Global Editorial Director, Katie Drummond. Today connected the show, the quality betwixt DOGE and authoritative national auditors. I'm joined contiguous by WIRED's Vittoria Elliott, invited to Uncanny Valley, Tori.

Vittoria Elliott: Thank you for having me.

Katie Drummond: Happy that you're here. Now, Tori, you published a communicative contiguous connected WIRED astir national auditors, what they do, what makes their enactment fundamentally antithetic to what DOGE is doing. And to study this story, you really spoke to a fewer national auditors. So, what does a national auditor really do? Because these are existent jobs, anterior to DOGE infiltrating national agencies, audits were really already happening. So, locomotion america done benignant of what that occupation entails connected a regular basis.

Vittoria Elliott: So, I deliberation possibly a batch of radical mightiness person forgotten astir this due to the fact that everything has been moving truthful quickly, but 1 of the archetypal moves of the caller Trump Administration was to occurrence a clump of inspector generals, and those are radical who actually, their offices really bash these kinds of investigations. So a batch of the audits, for instance, that we deliberation astir with authorities programs, spell done the offices of IGs. They person worldly reported to them, and past they get to look into it. So, if you're successful a national bureau and you're like, this seems to beryllium wrong, you tin study that to your agency's IG, and they tin spell successful and audit that. Audits tin besides beryllium ordered by Congress if they deliberation there's immoderate benignant of malfeasance oregon problems. So for instance, determination was a large audit of hurricane assistance during Hurricane Maria, due to the fact that determination was a batch of worldly that was lost. Auditors spent, I deliberation astir 18 months digging into those things. So, determination are really ways to look astatine peculiar programs successful agencies and measure the spending and measure whether oregon not these programs are really doing what they're meant to beryllium doing. We person a full strategy for that. And a batch of times that gets reported to Congress depending connected the sensitivity of it. So, possibly if they're auditing thing wherever we're looking astatine worldly that mightiness impact classified oregon concealed accusation that mightiness not beryllium public, but a batch of times these audits are really besides made nationalist to Congress, you tin spell find them.

Katie Drummond: Right, disposable to the public, arsenic opposed to DOGE, contempt the claims that Musk and adjacent President Trump person made, that this is simply a maximally transparent radical of radical doing this work. We don't really cognize that overmuch astir what they're doing, what they're finding, and the changes that they're making, abbreviated of journalists similar you and truthful galore of your WIRED colleagues and different quality organizations obtaining that accusation and publishing it. Now, I privation to backmost up a small spot due to the fact that astatine the bosom of each of this is this conception of fraud, of waste, of fiscal abuse. It's thing that Elon Musk has repeatedly claimed is widespread, pervasive crossed authorities agencies that determination is fraudulent spending, determination is excessive discarded happening. There is maltreatment of fiscal power, fiscal authorization connected the portion of these agencies. Now, from what you've reported implicit the past respective months and successful your role, however valid is that assertion to statesman with?

Vittoria Elliott: There was a study from the authorities accountability bureau that covered the years 2018 to 2022, and that recovered that there's really implicit $200 cardinal of waste, fraud, oregon maltreatment that happens. So it's like, it's not this made up thing, but successful the discourse of a $7 trillion national budget, that is not what's breaking the bank. I don't deliberation anyone, Democrat oregon Republican, DOGE instrumentality oregon not, would reason that, hey, that's a occupation that we request to solve. That's a precise invaluable thing. But 1 of the auditors that I spoke to fundamentally said DOGE could spell look astatine the existent recommendations from the IGs. They could spell look astatine the existent outstanding investigations. They could prime up that enactment if they are truly dedicated to this due to the fact that determination really are systems, and determination really are reports astir this. But from what the auditors I spoke to said, they said that doesn't truly look to beryllium what DOGE is doing. And 1 of the different things they said was a batch of auditors would astir apt beryllium truly blessed to assistance them, to connection advice. They'd beryllium blessed to enactment with them, they'd beryllium blessed to bring young endowment into their teams to benignant of marque the auditing strategy much robust. But DOGE is truly benignant of siloed, it doesn't look similar they're truly funny successful that.

Katie Drummond: Right. Now, speaking of DOGE and the auditors that you spoke to for this story, they surely didn't person benignant words to accidental astir however DOGE is going astir its work. Tell america a small spot much astir their impressions of DOGE and their commentary connected benignant of what is happening nether the auspices of this thought that Musk and DOGE are fundamentally auditing the national government. What bash the existent auditors deliberation astir that?

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, truthful to springiness immoderate context, archetypal off, a regular audit, which involves similar 5 antithetic steps, truthful determination are 5 steps to an audit. One is wherever you program it, you beryllium down, you say, "This is what we're looking at, this is the benignant of accusation we're going to request to spell after." You benignant of representation retired who the stakeholders are, who you're going to person to interview, due to the fact that a batch of times they're going into programs oregon systems that possibly they don't afloat understand. So, it's astir a small ethnographic. You got to spell in, you got to interrogation people, you got to beryllium like, "What is your job? What does this link to? What does this mean wrong your system?" You person to bash that baseline knowing of getting to cognize the programme oregon the agency. Then you bash the existent tract work, which is, you spell out, you speech to people. In the lawsuit of, for instance, the hurricane stuff, they really sent auditors, I believe, to Puerto Rico to spot what was going on. You spell into the systems, you bash that benignant of quality connected the crushed legwork. Once you've done that, they benignant of propulsion each this accusation unneurotic into a report, they benignant of bash this analysis. They speech to the agencies, they accidental like, "Hey, these are the problems we found. You person the accidental to close these. These are our recommendations." And past they taxable that to the agencies, to Congress, and past they get to travel up. They get to travel backmost and beryllium like, "Hey, we recommended this thing. Did you hole this problem?" There's a level of accountability for trying to hole that thing. So, determination are precise wide understandings wrong the authorities of what the champion signifier of this is, and each of these radical bash that. That takes six to 18 months.

Katie Drummond: Right, I was astir to say, that sounds similar a precise time-consuming and extended process to recognize these systems, recognize a definite portion of a definite agency. Right? Remembering the national authorities is massive. I mean, it's the largest leader successful the country. We're talking astir conscionable immense infrastructure to benignant of prime astatine 1 small portion of it would beryllium a precise time-consuming and benignant of labor-intensive process if you are truly doing your diligence, arsenic you conscionable outlined.

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, and truthful what the auditors told maine is, for instance, a batch of the claims that Musk and DOGE person made astir the Social Security Administration, which Musk saying that 150 twelvemonth olds are receiving societal information checks, which our workfellow David Gilbert debunked successful a truly astute piece. Or you cognize what they're saying astir each this waste, fraud, and maltreatment wrong the societal information system. Both these auditors said to maine what that says to them is that they don't really recognize the strategy good capable to place wherever the problems are, it seems, due to the fact that evidently they're not successful interaction with DOGE, but they're benignant of reverse engineering possibly however they're getting these conclusions, is that they're going in, they don't needfully recognize the systems. They're possibly utilizing immoderate signifier of publication oregon keyword searching to find peculiar things to surface. But the world is that it would beryllium intolerable for idiosyncratic coming successful from the extracurricular to audit the full societal information strategy successful 2 to 3 weeks.

Katie Drummond: Right, which is to beryllium clear, what appears to beryllium happening.

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah. And the different happening too, is DOGE is not conscionable "auditing" these systems, similar going successful and looking astatine stuff. They're canceling contracts, which also, a batch of these auditors besides recognize however national contracting works due to the fact that truthful overmuch of the national government's enactment really goes done contracting, moving with radical successful section areas oregon outsourcing worldly to the backstage sector. And 1 of the things that they truly talked astir arsenic well, which we didn't get into truthful overmuch successful the piece, but I thought was ace fascinating, is DOGE is specifically saying that it's redeeming the American radical money, but erstwhile you cancel a contract, you're inactive liable due to the fact that there's a ineligible statement determination for paying retired portion of it, sometimes it's 10 to 15%. And 1 of the things they talked astir too, is oftentimes erstwhile the authorities buys something, it does it successful bulk truthful they get a discount, due to the fact that if you're buying similar $2 cardinal worthy of worldly from someone, they'll springiness you 5, 10% off. But erstwhile you cancel that contract, you're already paying 10, 15% of what that declaration mightiness person had to beryllium anyhow to beryllium capable to cancel it. And past you're apt going to request that work again successful the future, possibly successful a smaller amount, but you're going to wage much for it, oregon you're going to wage much successful clip oregon manpower for your ain team. A batch of these things that connected the aboveground tin look similar ample amounts of wealth whitethorn really successful the agelong run, astir apt not beryllium redeeming precise overmuch wealth astatine all. In fact, it mightiness beryllium costing more.

Katie Drummond: Right. When you're reasoning astir paying a termination fee, you're reasoning astir the clip and effort, and to your point, the quality assets that would spell into renegotiating a declaration erstwhile you realize, oops, we spent six weeks doing this "audit," turns retired we canceled the declaration that we truly need, and present we're backmost to the dialog array with this supplier. And each of a abrupt the terms is 100% of the outgo alternatively of 90% of the cost. Point good taken. Now, connected the taxable of audits, were determination immoderate circumstantial audits that basal retired arsenic examples of this process, this benignant of national auditing process happening successfully and starring to a amended outcome?

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, I mean, the crushed that I brought up the hurricane one, is due to the fact that evidently the mode that the authorities has addressed hurricane response, peculiarly successful Puerto Rico due to the fact that of its presumption arsenic a territory and not a state, was really, truly fraught, right? And that benignant of accountability, I mean, authorities is truthful dilatory and grinding and it feels precise frustrating to people. And the flip broadside of it being dilatory and grinding is that nary one's going to chopped disconnected your societal information overnight. That would besides beryllium a dilatory and grinding process, hopefully. So, 1 happening that the auditor benignant of spoke about, and really is thing that I've talked to immoderate different national employees who are not featured successful this portion about, is their knowing of the authorities is benignant of similar the happening that is truthful frustrating for radical is that it is truthful slow, but portion of the crushed it's truthful dilatory is due to the fact that there's truthful galore measures successful spot to marque definite that you can't misuse authorities money. It's a effect to erstwhile audits, to erstwhile investigations, to erstwhile issues. And so, portion of the crushed that it mightiness instrumentality months to get a national contract, portion of the crushed it mightiness instrumentality months to get cleared for something, is due to the fact that there's each these tiny steps successful betwixt to marque definite that they can't misappropriate authorities money. If anything, immoderate of the dilatory grinding vexation that radical explicit astir the authorities is the effect to trying to marque definite that determination is little quality for waste, fraud, and abuse.

Katie Drummond: It is fundamentally the strategy moving arsenic it should, and presumably the result, arsenic you say, of years and years of these audits, of these inspections, of this diligence, and this accountability, that has led america to the strategy that we have. Which yes, is dilatory and grinding, but again, is designed to forestall fraud and to supply services for the American people. Your illustration astir societal information is simply a large one. I mean, it mightiness beryllium frustrating to hold for your societal information benefits to footwear in, but the worst lawsuit script is that idiosyncratic moving with DOGE cancels your societal information payments successful the backmost end. And each of a sudden, you walk six months oregon a twelvemonth struggling to person them reinstated, right?

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, and again, I don't deliberation there's immoderate idiosyncratic who would beryllium like, "Oh, the government's truly businesslike and does precisely what it's expected to bash erstwhile it's expected to bash it." No, you could decidedly marque an statement for ratio connected the idiosyncratic end, right? But I deliberation adjacent the word authorities efficiency, are we utilizing ratio successful the mode that you and I mightiness recognize it like, this is faster and cleaner and amended for america arsenic extremity user? Or are we utilizing ratio successful similar the backstage equity sense, which is like, this is amended astatine funneling wealth to backstage manufacture and specifically to the radical astatine the apical of backstage industry? Because that's different signifier of utilizing efficiency.

Katie Drummond: Well, it definite is. It seems similar 1 that Elon Musk mightiness beryllium acquainted with himself. So Tori, Elon Musk has described what DOGE is doing arsenic fundamentally an audit of authorities waste, fiscal maltreatment crossed national agencies. The auditors you spoke to though, didn't precisely spot this DOGE effort arsenic an audit. So, if it's not an audit, what is it?

Vittoria Elliott: So, I deliberation the hardest happening is that we don't needfully know. We bash cognize that they're trying to get into these systems and chopped spending, chopped contracts, truthful I deliberation that's a large one. But the auditors I spoke to said auditing is benignant of seeing what's successful there, providing recommendations. But archetypal and foremost, it seems similar they're going in, they're making a batch of cuts, and that isn't needfully what you bash successful an audit, particularly for things that are services that the authorities whitethorn proceed to request successful the future, that's going to determination that enactment astir apt to the backstage sector. And secondly, that there's truthful overmuch information that the authorities has, and they some said they couldn't assistance but deliberation that the existent extremity was to person entree to that benignant of data, whether that's for grooming an LLM to regenerate radical oregon thing else, oregon whether that's for their ain competitory advantage.

Katie Drummond: Right. We are going to instrumentality a abbreviated break. We'll beryllium backmost with Tori Elliott successful a minute. Welcome backmost to Uncanny Valley. I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global editorial director. I'm joined by WIRED's Tori Elliott. Now Tori, I privation to walk a small spot of clip talking astir this unthinkable diagnostic that WIRED published precocious past week, and that you shared a byline on, on with respective different reporters and editors. Now, the communicative was a heavy dive into the archetypal six weeks of DOGE. The header connected the portion is, Inside Elon Musk's 'Digital Coup,' large headline. You person been truthful successful the weeds connected DOGE for a mates of months now. Thank you, and I'm sorry. But what does this bigger communicative archer america astir DOGE that you deliberation is peculiarly important?

Vittoria Elliott: So, 1 of the biggest things that I deliberation the diagnostic truly delivers is it helps benignant of enactment these each unneurotic successful 1 large representation to assistance radical recognize some the timeline of erstwhile each these things happened, which fundamentally started the infinitesimal that Trump came into office. But also, helps radical spot however these antithetic things link together, the mode that the takeover astatine the Office of Personnel Management, which is the government's HR, and past the takeover of the General Services Administration, which does a batch of its procurement stuff, besides deals with its IT systems and property. Sort of similar however taking implicit those agencies via repurposing the US integer work became this hub for everything other that the Trump Administration is doing successful the government. And I deliberation erstwhile we benignant of laic it retired successful that way, you tin spot greater patterns, which is the absorption connected cutting employees, the absorption connected taking implicit IT systems, and precise specifically the absorption truly connected getting into contracting and outgo systems. And successful the lawsuit of USAID, the worst lawsuit script of what tin happen, which is erstwhile idiosyncratic is successful your systems, they tin unopen your bureau down.

Katie Drummond: Which is precisely what happened with that one. Now, this communicative to maine is really, if you're going to work 1 communicative astir DOGE, if you can't support up with the occurrence hose, this is the communicative to read. It truly benignant of walks audiences and walks readers done successful this precise step-by-step narrative, precisely what the past six weeks person looked similar from wrong the administration. Now, let's instrumentality listeners wrong the instrumentality a small bit, however stories similar this travel to be. Now, I volition caveat by telling everybody that there's a batch we can't stock astir our reporting, there's a batch that Tori can't say, but we bash stock successful the portion that you and your colleagues talked to much than 150 radical for this story. 150 people. I got a batch of substance messages from friends aft the communicative came retired being like, "150 people, Katie? What bash you person these mediocre reporters doing each day?" But you guys person been moving really, truly hard connected this reporting. So, archer america astir the past fewer weeks of your beingness arsenic you person been moving to enactment this diagnostic together. What does that look like, reporting this time successful and time out?

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, it feels similar a occurrence hose successful my awesome inbox. The happening that I announcement truthful overmuch is that a batch of the national workers that I spoke to, they truly conscionable privation to beryllium heard. These are radical who don't person large nationalist profiles. When you're a national worker, you can't spell beryllium politically progressive successful the aforesaid way. You can't needfully spell protestation oregon run for someone. You can't clasp definite types of fiscal products, if you're doing immoderate benignant of enactment astatine the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau oregon Treasury oregon immoderate that mightiness modulate that. So, I deliberation astir radical that we spoke to archetypal and foremost conscionable truly wanted to consciousness heard and felt truthful confused astatine however they'd dedicated their lives to this enactment and abruptly they were the atrocious guy. And I deliberation there's an urgency to that. Their lives were changing truthful quickly, and determination was benignant of this outpouring of some accusation and a batch of emotion. So successful immoderate ways, I deliberation it has felt precise overmuch similar having a cardinal adjacent friends going done a breakup astatine the aforesaid time, wherever you don't privation to permission them connected work for excessively long, due to the fact that radical are taking some nonrecreational and affectional risks to speech to us, to beryllium unfastened with us, to archer america what their acquisition is oregon what they're seeing. And I deliberation the biggest happening successful however I've thought astir this is, truly trying to beryllium responsive due to the fact that erstwhile radical are doing that, it's bully to cognize that there's different idiosyncratic connected the different end. So I deliberation there's this benignant of immediacy to being responsive to people, to making definite we're asking the close questions portion besides being empathetic, portion besides being careful. And that I deliberation would beryllium challenging if it was conscionable a fewer people, but it's many, galore tens of radical per each of us. And I deliberation the large happening besides is that you ne'er truly cognize wherever immoderate idiosyncratic speech is going to lead, due to the fact that sometimes radical don't cognize what they know, similar they don't cognize if they person important oregon insightful information. And truthful treating each speech similar it is some truly invaluable due to the fact that idiosyncratic tin marque a truly offhand remark of like, "Oh, this strategy usually works this way, and that tin beryllium a puzzle portion that tin slot into thing that idiosyncratic other connected the squad is moving on." But besides due to the fact that situations are truthful fraught close now, treating each speech similar it mightiness beryllium the past clip you talk to that person.

Katie Drummond: Right, absolutely. I mean, it's a tremendous magnitude of work to bear. And conscionable reasoning astir however galore radical you are talking to astatine immoderate fixed time, I mean, it's a batch connected 1 person's shoulders. Now, 9 radical stock a byline connected this story, which is comparatively antithetic for america astatine WIRED. And what that means if you're listening, is that 9 journalists contributed reporting and penning to this azygous diagnostic that we published connected WIRED.com past week. So Tori, however bash you enactment arsenic a squad to propulsion that benignant of happening together? How bash these 9 radical travel unneurotic to propulsion disconnected each of this reporting, each of this writing? Tell america a small spot astir that.

Vittoria Elliott: So, this is the infinitesimal wherever we outcry retired Leah Feiger, Tim Marchman, and Zoe Schiffer, for being the stitchers of things. I consciousness similar maine and different people, we conscionable were like, present is the five-page agelong papers of everything we cognize astir the peculiar things that we're reporting on. And they truly went successful and, due to the fact that they've been editing a batch of our pieces and they person this higher level presumption astir wherever immoderate of our worldly fits with each other, they went successful and did that archetypal stitching crossed aggregate lines of reporting and storytelling. And past determination was different papers that was somewhat shorter but not overmuch shorter, and there's a batch of chill details that made it into the feature. There's besides a batch of truly absorbing details that we conscionable benignant of couldn't get successful there.

Katie Drummond: Pick one. Is determination thing that didn't marque it into that communicative that you privation had, that you tin share?

Vittoria Elliott: Initially we had immoderate absorbing worldly successful determination from a freelancer successful South Africa.

Katie Drummond: Oh, wow.

Vittoria Elliott: Who had talked a small spot astir the mode that erstwhile apartheid was successful spot and the achromatic South African government, the mode that they brute unit transformed the country. And however increasing up successful that for idiosyncratic similar Musk, mightiness truly pass what you judge a top-down operation of elites successful authorities mightiness beryllium capable to do. And I deliberation that was a truly absorbing perspective, but ultimately, we didn't get to usage it for the piece. And besides due to the fact that it's I think, hard sometimes to speculate what is successful anybody's head, but I deliberation that benignant of discourse of, wherever mightiness someone's notation constituent beryllium for the benignant of decisions that they're making oregon however they deliberation the strategy should work, is truly interesting.

Katie Drummond: That is interesting. Now, this diagnostic that we published documented fundamentally the archetypal six weeks of Musk and DOGE successful D.C. wrong the national government. Let's ideate for a minute, not thing journalists are needfully peculiarly bully at.

Vittoria Elliott: I don't deliberation it's that we're not bully astatine it. I deliberation it's that we're precise cautious astir facts.

Katie Drummond: We're precise careful, and we're going to bash this precise carefully. Let's ideate different six weeks spell by. It's aboriginal May, Tori, and we are moving connected the 2nd large diagnostic astir DOGE. What communicative bash you deliberation WIRED mightiness beryllium telling astir DOGE by then? Knowing of course, that this is informed speculation, this is by nary means the facts that we similar to postulation in.

Vittoria Elliott: Well, I deliberation we're astir apt going to person overmuch much accent connected Social Security Administration, that is according to reporting from our colleagues, Makena Kelly and David Gilbert, that's wherever a batch of DOGE operatives are presently concentrated close now. So I think, and Musk has already floated a batch of connection astir needing to curtail entitlements.

Katie Drummond: Yes.

Vittoria Elliott: So I deliberation societal information volition astir apt beryllium the large focal constituent of immoderate adjacent bushed determination is. I deliberation we're besides going to see, arsenic we've already seen, the Trump Administration has talked astir truly collapsing definite agencies similar the Department of Education and USAID, folding them into different agencies. So, I deliberation that we whitethorn besides beryllium looking astatine that, the benignant of, what does it mean erstwhile you person full agencies established by Congress being consolidated unneurotic oregon into different agencies? And what is that going to mean for things similar information privacy? What is that going to mean for their systems? And I deliberation possibly different happening that we're going to spot much of is the usage of AI tools by the government. What's being rolled out, where? Who's utilizing it? What information is it being trained on? I deliberation each of those questions are going to go much salient arsenic the clip goes on. And a batch of DOGE radical are what we telephone peculiar authorities employees. They are lone expected to person a tenure of astir 130 days, which is astir six months, which means that those who are doing this archetypal question of DOGE onslaught unit whitethorn beryllium retired by June, and determination whitethorn beryllium a full caller radical of radical coming successful to instrumentality their place. So, I deliberation we volition besides beryllium reasoning astir who is going to travel in, assuming that they abide by these rules and they don't get extensions oregon peculiar exceptions oregon whatever. I deliberation we're going to beryllium looking much astatine who's going to beryllium coming in, what companies they're coming from. And I deliberation we'll person a greater consciousness astatine that constituent astatine the grade to which these backstage assemblage connections are present firmly rooted successful government.

Katie Drummond: Fascinating, that was an fantabulous prediction. Thank you. We're going to instrumentality a abbreviated break, erstwhile we travel back, Tori tells you what you request to work connected WIRED today. Welcome backmost to Uncanny Valley. I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global Editorial Director. I'm joined by WIRED's Tori Elliott. Tori, earlier I fto you go, archer our listeners what they perfectly indispensable work connected WIRED.com today, different than the stories we talked astir successful this episode.

Vittoria Elliott: Well, I'm going to bash different shameless plug for the authorities team.

Katie Drummond: Please do.

Vittoria Elliott: So, we published a communicative this week by Leah Feiger and Zoe Schiffer astir Donald Trump holding different cardinal dollar candlelight meal astatine Mar-a-Lago, featuring Elon Musk and I judge what appears to beryllium Shivon Zilis, who is an enforcement astatine Neuralink, the encephalon machine interface institution that Musk founded. And Zilis is besides the parent of a fewer of the galore of Musk's children.

Katie Drummond: A few.

Vittoria Elliott: So I deliberation it's 1 of those things that, archetypal off, this is extraordinarily aboriginal successful a presidency to beryllium raising wealth already. And secondly, peculiarly with Musk arsenic a backer who is committing tens of millions of dollars to the Trump run oregon to Trump much generally. But I deliberation what we truly spot is this appropriation of Trump's clip successful this way, and it's beauteous concerning due to the fact that it's 1 happening to wage a batch of wealth to spell to a fundraiser for a governmental candidate, we're precise utilized to that during run season. I deliberation it's different happening to spot that it mightiness go regular due to the fact that this is the 2nd 1 that we cognize of successful six weeks. The thought that it mightiness go regular for the president to beryllium hosting dinners wherever radical who tin wage a cardinal dollars oregon much tin get a backstage assemblage with him.

Katie Drummond: Right, you're fundamentally paying to entree President Trump and Elon Musk successful this scenario. I deliberation worthy pointing retired 2 things that basal retired to me. One, Trump can't tally for bureau again.

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, not yet.

Katie Drummond: Where this wealth is going is beauteous murky. Two, I thought it was truly absorbing and notable that the archetypal of these dinners WIRED reported connected a fewer weeks agone was really connected the President's authoritative schedule, this 2nd meal was not. So it surely appears arsenic though determination is immoderate tendency present to alert beneath the radar successful the discourse of these candlelight dinners. I besides hatred the information that candles are progressive for immoderate reason, it makes maine precise uncomfortable. Tori Elliott, convey you truthful overmuch for joining maine today.

Vittoria Elliott: Thank you truthful overmuch for having me.

Katie Drummond: All right, that's our show. We volition nexus to each the stories we spoke astir successful the amusement notes. If you similar what you heard today, marque definite to travel our amusement and complaint it connected your podcast app of choice. If you'd similar to get successful interaction with immoderate of america for questions, comments, oregon amusement suggestions, constitute to america astatine [email protected]. Make definite to cheque retired Thursday's occurrence of Uncanny Valley, each astir May Musk. Yes, she's Elon's mom. This occurrence was edited by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal astatine Macrosound mixed this episode. Pran Bandi is our workplace engineer. Jordan Bell is our Executive Producer. Conde Nast's Head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. And I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global Editorial Director. Goodbye.